EPISODE FIVE - “What is the Future of Broadway?”
Today, Hal sits down with Charlotte St. Martin, President of The Broadway League. Charlotte and Hal chat about which program Charlotte’s most proud of starting, what she thinks makes a good producer, and why Broadway shows are so magical.
Charlotte came to the Broadway League in 2006 from Loews Hotels, where over three decades she became one of the highest-ranking women in the hospitality industry. Charlotte St. Martin was named President of the Broadway League in 2015, where she had been serving as its Executive Director. Outside of the League, Charlotte serves on the Board of Trustees for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDs and The Actors Fund.
To learn more about The Broadway League, visit BroadwayLeague.com or follow the League on Twitter and Instagram @BroadwayLeague. For the latest updates on Broadway, visit Broadway.org.
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transcript below!
Hal Luftig:
Hi everyone. This is Hal Luftig with my Broadway Podcast Network show Broadway Biz, where every episode I will chat with my friends, some of the top theater professionals in the business, about the business of Broadway.
Hal Luftig:
Charlotte St. Martin came to the Broadway League as its executive director in 2006. Prior to this, Charlotte was one of the highest ranking women in the hospitality industry at Loews Hotels. She was named president of the Broadway League in 2015. Outside of the league, Charlotte serves on the board of trustees for Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS, and the Actor's Fund. It's an honor for me to welcome Charlotte St. Martin to Broadway Biz. Hi, Charlotte. How are you? Thank you so much for joining me.
Charlotte St. Martin:
Thank you, Hal. It's always a pleasure to be with you.
Hal Luftig:
Besides you doing an incredible job in leadership since you've been with us at the League, you are one of my favorite people on earth and the way you have led us and continue to lead us is actually inspirational because I watch you in some of our meetings, which are not always easy, we have a lot of different personalities, and the way you float down those treacherous waters is actually inspirational. And I just want you to know, I have used you as an inspiration when I have to sort of negotiate with actors, agents, and directors and things like that. I actually think sometimes, "What would Charlotte St. Martin do?" So, I'm deeply, deeply grateful for your leadership and especially that you're on with us today.
Hal Luftig:
So, Charlotte, I was wondering if you could tell us your story of how you came to the League. What was that journey for you?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Well, Hal, I've been working since I was 12 years old and almost every role I've had, with exception of some of my very early roles after I got out of college, were related to the hospitality industry and were related organizations with perishable inventory like hotels. You didn't sell that room last night, that revenue is gone forever. The same as Broadway. You didn't sell that seat last night, that revenue is gone forever. And I particularly love to serve. I've always loved to serve. I believe that associations are one of the gifts that this country has. I do believe that the sum total is greater than the parts. I got on an association board at 22 years old, it happened to be called the Distributive Education Council Board. And I have since served on the board of, been an officer of, or chaired an association my entire adult life.
Charlotte St. Martin:
And I believe in them because they bring people together. Hopefully they provide a safe place to discuss issues, to discuss possibilities, to solve problems. So, that belief led me to chair major associations within the hospitality industry and the hotel industry. And I became known as a person that could get competing organizations to work together for common goals. We created a diversity initiative for the hotel business 30 years ago between the three top competing trade associations, but it was something we were all grappling with and it made great sense for us to work together.
Charlotte St. Martin:
So, when the search company that was hired by the Broadway League were doing their outreach to people that would help them find the right candidate, they said they wanted somebody that learned how to build consensus. And apparently my name came up from several different sources because I had done that work early on in my career. I had just left Loews Hotels. I was with them for 28 years. Absolutely loved them. It's one of the finest corporations in the world, but I had traveled 75% of the time for 25 years. And one day I woke up and said, "Stick a fork in me. I am done. I cannot get another airplane every week and sometimes two or three times a week." So, they found me through a search company called Korn Ferry.
Hal Luftig:
Wow. I was not part of the committee that was the search committee for a new executive director. But I remember that we were very close, we were told it was down to two, and then suddenly, hit the brakes, we found this great new candidate Charlotte St. Martin and next thing I knew, you were the president. I remember meeting you for the first time and before you joined the league, it was not as organized, let's say, as it is now under your leadership. And I remember thinking, "Wow. This poor woman from Texas has no idea what she's just stepped into." But here you are so many years later and I just have to, once again, commend you. I wish others could see you in action.
Hal Luftig:
So, here's a question that I know a lot of listeners would love to hear and I get it asked too, what does the Broadway League do?
Charlotte St. Martin:
The Broadway league is a trade association, which means we represent the commercial theater in the country. And we do things like, obviously membership, but we were originally formed to negotiate a multi-employer bargaining unit for all of our producers with all of the unions. We have 17 union contracts with 14 unions, and that's why we were originally formed. We were also formed at the same time for two reasons. One was the union reason and the second was to fight fraudulent ticket brokers. And guess what? Some 80-something years later, we're still doing the same thing. Fortunately, we're doing a lot of other very important things.
Charlotte St. Martin:
One of the things that is often overlooked until you need it is we do all of the research, both locally and nationally, for the commercial theater industry. And we are able to talk to our elected officials and say to them, for example in New York City, that we provide an economic impact of over $14.5 billion to the city that helps us get things done. So, we do research both locally and federally across this whole country and we talk to our elected officials with that research.
Charlotte St. Martin:
We clearly market and we market the brand of Broadway. Of course, our fabulous shows market their own brands, but we market the brand of Broadway. And we do that through common programs like Kid's Night on Broadway that we do on an annual basis. And we do it not just in New York, but across the country. We do it through programs like Stars in the Alley. We do it through that little show called the Tony Awards that come every June with the American Theater Wing. We partner in that broadcast, which is a three hour, what I call, live love fest for commercial theater and Broadway. And we have many other things. All of our educational programs and audience engagement programs that help us to introduce Broadway to new people.
Charlotte St. Martin:
Like one of the things I'm most proud of is that we launched two years ago a program in New York city called Broadway Bridges. And our goal is to have every high school student in New York City, all five boroughs, see a Broadway show before they graduate. Well, that's 70,000 kids. We're building up to that. This year we will do 25,000 kids that are sophomores or above. Eventually we'll get to the 70,000. And we're trying to find ways to take that program and make it work in other cities where there's a lot of theater. We happen to have 41 theaters, so clearly we're able to reach through the number of seats that we have more people than, say Tempe, Arizona, but there may be something we can do about that.
Charlotte St. Martin:
We have many other audience engagement programs. And one that we have been managing for about seven years is called the Jimmy Awards. The Jimmies are the Tonys for teens. Over 170,000 kids compete in 43 regional competitions, and that's from 1,900 schools, to send to students from each region to New York city to be trained by professional actors and coaches and musicians and dancers. They perform live on a Broadway stage and we select winners, both best actress and best actor on that evening. And we give out 20 scholarships. So those are some of the things that we do to spread the brand of Broadway, to build audiences, build our future workforces that are out there. We also obviously do things that normal trade associations do like have conferences and educational programs and professional development for our members and their staff. So, it's a wide set of offerings that we offer to our members and to the country about what it is that we do.
Hal Luftig:
Wow. That is really terrific. I must say, I personally love the idea of Broadway Bridges and its existence. I think when you first started it, I thought the idea of making sure that younger people get to experience theater, live theater, is crucial. And by making a child have the experience or letting a child have that experience, is just brilliant.
Hal Luftig:
Charlotte, one of the purposes of this program, why we call it Broadway Biz, is that we try to explain to our listeners how the economics of Broadway, or it's the commercial side of Broadway, matches with its artistic side and sort of demystify what it takes to put on a Broadway show financially, economically, artistically. I always get the question, why are theater tickets so expensive? Charlotte, why are tickets so expensive? What do you say?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Well, I'd say two things. One, I say we have the best theatrical employees in the world. I know London might like to disagree with me, but I'll take them on any day. And they're also the most expensive. And they are professionals. They work eight shows a week, 364 days a year and they're terrific, but they're not cheap. And Broadway is seen as the epitome of live theater and it is because we have the best sets, we have incredible directors, we have amazing marketing programs, I can just keep going. The designers, all of them are the best in the business and we know that because all other forms of entertainment come steal them. The opera uses our set designers and our directors and some of our actors. And I could just keep going. You see our people everywhere and that's because they are the best at what they do.
Charlotte St. Martin:
But they're not free. And what people think when they hear Broadway and ticket prices, they hear Hamilton, $800. They don't see that the average ticket price on any given day is between $100 and $125. They don't realize that 75% of the tickets are under $125, and 50% of the tickets are under a hundred dollars. And when you think that these theaters are anywhere from six, 700 seats to a couple of thousand seats, that's all the revenue they can get. They aren't on television. They aren't in a big arena with 80,000 seats. They're in a small theater, which by the standards of a movie theater or an arena, they are small. And it's one of the reasons theater is magical because you are in that room. You are sharing that experience, whether it's laughter or joyful emotions or crisis or sad emotions. You're experiencing it with however many other people that are in that theater.
Charlotte St. Martin:
And you're seeing it live and up close and you really get to escape into that experience. So, it's very expensive to do a Broadway show. The statistics over the years have shown that in a good year, one out of four shows recoups on its investment. In a bad year, it's one out of five. 60 years ago, it took six months for a hit show to recoup its investment. Today, for most shows, it's two years. You've got to run two years just to recoup your investment and then to start paying back dividends. So, Broadway's pricing and the tickets are certainly not free, but when you look at and compare them to other forms of live entertainment, whether it's concerts, whether it's sports, I'll put our pricing up against all of those and say, "How many times do you get to see the best actors in the world in a room that has 1,500 seats and just pay 125 to get to go?"
Hal Luftig:
I agree completely with everything you just said, that was perfectly said. And is there a place where one of our listeners can go from the League to see all these different programs that are available to them?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Absolutely. BroadwayLeague.com. You can look at all of the programs. Broadway.org, you can go see all of the shows that are playing on Broadway and around the country. And if you click on the shows, you can go straight to the ticketing website and buy a ticket and see all of the pricing that's available. And I do have to plug a new website we have that we're very proud of because all of a sudden Broadway and theater has become bigger and more accepted than it's ever been in its history. And we created a site called careers.broadway. And on that site, you have over 80 types of jobs that you can have to work on theater. Everybody knows about the actors and the ushers, but they don't really realize how many people work on Broadway and how many careers there are to participate in this very exciting, engaging, and passionate form of entertainment.
Charlotte St. Martin:
So, if you're interested in a career on Broadway, go to careers.broadway. Send your friends who are interested in what you do if you work in the theater already and let them explore what the careers are.
Hal Luftig:
Charlotte, you touched on something and I know ... We're in a very specific time in Broadway history. But that said, there's a lot of talk, even before this pandemic, about streaming. And I think there are two schools of thought that streaming is great because it brings theater into the homes of people who otherwise couldn't see theater. Be it price related or distance related, I know we tour in a lot of big cities but some of these people are two, three hours away from those big cities. And so one of the schools of thought is this is great because it allows more people who experience.
Hal Luftig:
There's another school of thought that by streaming this, we're not fully capturing the uniqueness, the beauty, the fun of being in a theater with 1,000 other people laughing or crying if it would be. But you know, the emotional connection. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your feelings on what you think of streaming. Good, bad, and why?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Well, I think you summarized beautifully that there are two areas of thought. We certainly have a lot of producers that are 100% convinced that there is no way that you can truly show the magic that occurs on stage through live streaming. And then there are others that have seen the metropolitan opera and said, "Well, it may not be the same as being in the room, but it's pretty great if I can't be there." I personally fell initially into the trend of thought that was it's not as great to watch it live stream or on a big screen. Until there was a show about five or six years ago called The Nance with Nathan Lane. It was a play.
Hal Luftig:
Oh, yes.
Charlotte St. Martin:
It moved me beyond many things I had ever experienced. And I loved it. And what I learned later is that they had filmed it and I was invited to go to the premiere of the film. It was in a small theater, and I loved it just as much. But what was important is that what the screen allowed you to do was to see those emotions and that face up close. And in checking it out later, I learned that it costs a lot of money to add the cameras and to do what it takes to film a show. If anyone saw Hamilton perform on stage at the Grammys a few years back, it was spectacular and it captured the magic of what happens on stage at the Hamilton.
Charlotte St. Martin:
I immediately called the producer and I said, "What did you do? How did you make that happen?" And he said, "Well, it's very easy if you've got plenty of money to have five cameras doing this." So, to be live streamed would require us to have a completely different financial model. The costs to have the shows live streamed or filmed and put any form of media is just cost prohibitive unless we change the model. I'm all for trying to find a new model, but I'm not a producer and I don't make those investments. So, who knows? There may be a day when we're able to do that. If I were a producer, I would say, "Why don't we go negotiate a contract with the actors so that if we make money, they get a share of it if we live stream it?" But what do I know about that, right?
Hal Luftig:
I wouldn't say that exactly. In fact, thank you, Charlotte, you've led me right into the next question, which is: In your opinion, what makes a good producer?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Curiosity, enthusiasm, persistence, unlike any persistence I've ever seen needed in any careers that I've been closely connected to. A passion for doing your project. I've already mentioned that one out of four shows is a good result to have one show out of four recoup, but I've never met a producer who believed that their show wasn't going to recoup. And part of that is their passion for the work and I think that is critical. There are many producers that are artists themselves, and there are others that just love the art and they go find the best people that can find, or people who share their sensibilities.
Charlotte St. Martin:
I think producers have to be generalists. They have to be able to work with all different kinds of unique personalities. You talk about my role working with producers and theater owners and presenters and general managers and the people who also put the business together, like the unions or the industry folks that build sets, et cetera. And yes, they are complex individuals. But you take a producer and you look at all of the people they have to work for from the personalities that the actors have, some of which are humble, some of which may have a strong ego, and that may be what it takes to do what they do every day. And then you add the director and then you add all of the other designers and you say, "I'm sorry, you can't have everything you want because this show has to eventually recoup its investment."
Charlotte St. Martin:
So, it requires a person with leadership skills, with either creativity or the smarts to hire the most creative people they can find, and with a passion that says they're willing to risk amazing amounts of capital to bring this art form to our stages. They're amazing people. I always have a time when I say about producers that nothing happens till somebody produces something. We co-sponsor and handle the Commercial Theater Institute and we give the Whitehead Award every year to previous students and to leading producers. And I always start off my remarks with, "Nothing happens till somebody produces something." And that's very true.
Hal Luftig:
That is very funny. That is very true. Talking about programs that the League does sponsor to, as you said, encourage different ways a person can work in theater without being an actor. Could you talk a little bit about CTI, which stands for Commercial Theater Institute, and how that came about and how it just works briefly? Just so our listeners, anyone who might be interested in producing, could hear.
Charlotte St. Martin:
Sure. Well, Commercial Theater Institute has many programs. The one that it got started with has a 14 week every Monday night during the winter and early spring session that's three hours. They have no more than 28 people that are allowed to participate and they get the best in the business speaking with these would-be producers about how to produce, how to direct, how to create the insurance, to get the insurance, how to hire people, how to develop the contracts. Really a very in-depth training on how to become a producer. Many of them become investors first, and they learn by being investors how to be a co-producer. And then at the end of the day, many of them become lead producers and general partners. There are other opportunities with Commercial Theater Institute. There's a three-day weekend program that gives you a broader perspective in three days of all that goes in to making theater.
Charlotte St. Martin:
And then there are one day seminars. Like one of my favorite is What Was Your Biggest Flop. They call it, lovingly, the Flop House. And you have these successful producers who talk about a show that they've done that completely flopped. And they talk about what they learned from that and how they use those lessons going forward. There's a session that they do for a number of times a year and for certain organizations, like, "Who gets what?" Because a lot of people don't understand the economics of Broadway. So, this particular seminar actually shows who gets what and why there's so little of it left to go around.
Charlotte St. Martin:
So, that's a birds eye view of the Commercial Theater Institute. But they also have a website which you can include there and people can go take a look and see if there are things they're interested in.
Hal Luftig:
That's terrific. And I have, full disclosure, I've been on a few of those panels, which actually was sort of the impetus for this podcast series. Because I've discovered that when people go to that program, they really don't know, they're learning, that's why they're there, but they really have no idea initially, everything from legalities of putting on show to the artistic choices one makes and it's really a great program. And this program is open to anyone, Charlotte?
Charlotte St. Martin:
It is, absolutely. I mean you have applications and especially for the 14 week, we require a pretty substantial documentation about why you want to do the program. We ask for references and as it is such a limited program, and it is such a high level, we have to ensure that this is not just a curiosity, that these are serious people looking at this as an industry for themselves. But yes, there's no criteria that keeps them out other than their interest and their backgrounds.
Hal Luftig:
Where do you see Broadway going in the future?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Well, we just witnessed the golden age of Broadway, which I've been privileged to be part of. We've had 12 record breaking years for attendance and product. It's just been amazing. But theater has been around for 4,000 years. And I recently heard a presentation that was talking about the history of theater. And there've only been two times when theater actually stopped. One was during a major pandemic across the world, and another was when the liquor laws changed dramatically and they had to shut down theater and then they learned that people were doing theater and observing theater in their backyards.
Charlotte St. Martin:
So, Broadway will come back. Theater will come back. People need this art form. It transforms them. If you could see the letters and the emails and the calls that we're getting from people: When are you back? How soon can I buy tickets? It's very heartening because theater has become part of people's lives and they're not going to accept not having it be part of their lives. They're going to find a way to get back. Will it take a while? Probably. But it will be back and it will be back stronger and better than other.
Charlotte St. Martin:
One of the selfish reasons we at the League in doing a lot of our audience engagement programs is we know that once you see a Broadway show, you will always go. So, we want to protect the future of theater as people have done in the past. But by doing these programs with these high school students and many other programs for other ages that other people are doing, we're building the future audiences. And in the last couple years, we've had the youngest audience in history on Broadway. Over 25% of our audience is under the age of 25. And last season alone, there were over 3 million of the 14.8 million theater goers under the age of 18. So, we're building those audiences for the future and we're building it because there's really nothing like the live theatrical experience.
Charlotte St. Martin:
I love movies. I love television. I love concerts. But I'd give all of those up to go see a live Broadway show. And I think there are a lot of people out there that feel that way. Over 30 million people see a live Broadway show in the United States alone every year.
Hal Luftig:
Wow. And this is what I mean, to my listeners, when I say that this woman, Charlotte St. Martin, is incredibly inspirational. What you just heard is why I admire her so. Because her conviction, her passion for what we all love in theater is right there embodied in one person.
Hal Luftig:
They say all good things must come to an end and I'd love to speak to you forever, but I can't. I want to let you go. But before I do, I have three rapid fire questions that I ask every guest and all I ask is that you don't really think about it too much, you say the first thing that comes to your mind. The first one is, what is your favorite musical?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Chorus Line.
Hal Luftig:
What is the wackiest moment you experienced in the theater?
Charlotte St. Martin:
Oh my, I think when somebody in a balcony threw up on somebody below and I think you know something about that.
Hal Luftig:
Yes. Unfortunately I do. And so the lesson learned from this was:
Charlotte St. Martin:
I'm not sure that I know what the lesson is.
Hal Luftig:
The lesson is don't ever sit below a balcony.
Charlotte St. Martin:
Maybe that's it.
Hal Luftig:
Well, Charlotte. This has been such an absolute delight. I can't thank you enough for joining me today. Have a wonderful day and know I'm so grateful for the time you gave us today. I adore you.
Charlotte St. Martin:
And I adore you and I loved every minute of talking with you.
Hal Luftig:
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Broadway Biz. If you have any questions about today's episode or the business of Broadway in general, let me know on Instagram @broadwaybizpodcast, or via email at broadwaybiz@halluftig.com. Be sure to follow me at Broadway Biz Podcasts for updates on everything Broadway biz, the business of Broadway. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Huge thanks to Dory Bernstein, Allen Seals, and Brittany Bigelow. This has been produced by Dylan Murray parents and Kevin Conner and edited by Derek Gunther. Our fabulous theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Lawrence O'Keefe. To learn more about Broadway Biz, visit bpm.fm/broadwaybiz.