EPISODE THIRTEEN - "HOW DO YOU TAKE A BROADWAY SHOWON THE ROAD?”
What a detailed conversation today with Stephen Lindsay and Brett Sirota, co-founders of The Road Company. Stephen and Brett lay the groundwork for building and planning a tour and map out their own journeys to becoming bookers. This is an essential conversation for understanding how producing extends beyond Broadway.
Stephen has enjoyed over two decades of distributing, producing and presenting touring productions throughout North America. As the co-owner and primary sales agent at The Road Company, he directly books all First National tours and oversees the company’s touring product, including shows such as Wicked, Kinky Boots, Catch Me If You Can and Moulin Rouge.
Brett oversees all operational aspects of The Road Company, including finances, technology and legal matters. Brett has more than 20 years of experience in theatrical booking, plus additional background in company and general management as well as arts administration. He is also a retired attorney. Brett hails from Baltimore, MD and is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania.
To keep up with what’s on the road, visit their website.
transcript below!
Hal Luftig - Host:
Hi everyone, this is Hal Luftig with my Broadway Podcast Network show, Broadway Biz, where every episode I will chat with my friends, some of the top theater professionals in the business about the business of Broadway. Stephen Lindsay and Brett Sirota are co-founders and partners of The Road Company, which is a theatrical booking agency. Some of their current shows are Wicked, The Bands Visit, The Prom, and many others. Today, they'll be explaining exactly how they plan the tours for Broadway musicals on this episode of Broadway Biz. Hi guys, how are you?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Hey, doing all right.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Yeah, hanging in there.
Hal Luftig - Host:
That's all we can expect. Well, thank you for joining us today. I'm sure our listeners, you all enlight a lot of people about your specialty in the theater business. So let's start with what is a tour booker.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Well, it's always one of the hardest things to describe what you do, especially if they're family members, so I'm going to let Brett take this one.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Oh, okay, great. Well, a tour booker, we work for a producer or in some ways you could say we work for the show. We represent these shows, Broadway shows and other attractions, and our basic job, we're salespeople. We are distributors. We take these tours, we figure out which cities they'll go to in North America. We contact those markets. We try to sell them the show and we hopefully make a deal. And then we follow up with all the paperwork and the contracts and the details about ticket pricing and all that stuff. And then we sort of hand it off and this is a very overly simplistic view, but we hand it off to the producer and the general managers, and then they run the actual tour. We are not the tour managers in the sense of running the logistics of a tour. We set it up and hand it off. It tends to be a little more complicated than that, but that is the basic explanation.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
To add to that, the simplistic way of looking at what a booking agent does, it's not dissimilar to a musician or a professional athlete that has an agent that represents their interests and negotiates on their behalf. The same is for Broadway Shows as entities.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Okay. Well, that's great, because now, even I understand. Let's get specific for a second. So, I have Kinky Boots, and we decide the producers, Daryl Roth, and I decide, "Oh, I got to take this on a US tour." So we come to you as our booker, and explain it. You then go around to all the different presenters in every city that can viably take us in terms of theater size, capacity, things like that. And you then come back to us and say, "Here's your routing. You're going to start in Boston," just an example, "Start in Boston, you're going to then go to Chicago. You're then going to go to the next city." Is that pretty much how it works?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
That's a pretty basic way of looking at it determining how many weeks through the presenters and then creating a route. But it's more to that. I think before any of that happens, it's determining the viability of the actual title on the road. So Kinky Boots, for example, was a very different tour before it won best musical. We looked at Kinky Boots originally as, "Okay, it's doing this level of box office. It's incredibly successful. People love the show. This is perfect for the road." During that time where pre-Tony's were talking to the presenters about the viability of a tour, how many weeks, I think at that point, most of the presenters were feeling that it was a subscription only. This market like Tempe or Gammage Auditorium. It was a one-week market, or Los Angeles at the time was a two-week market at The Pantageous.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
When Kinky then won the Tony award for best musical, it changed the parameters of how we were going to distribute that show. For instance, LA became a four week run as opposed to a two week run. The best musical Tony absolutely has an impact on a touring show. There's no question. It's probably one of the only Tony's that make a difference in the impact of the box office. And sometimes with shows that are struggling, not Kinky Boots, but other types of shows, if you win the best musical, it enables a tour to happen. Previous to that, if the box office wasn't strong, most of the road markets are determined by how New York does. I think that's fair to say.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Let me do a deep dive here for a second. So are you saying when you say that Tony matters on the road, is that because the local presenters feel like their audience is very influenced by when a show comes in and they can say Tony best musical? Who determines what the ingredients are, if you will to go from a two week to a four week?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Well, I'll jump in here. I would say when you win a Tony award for best musical, it obviously has an impact on New York or at least it usually does. And then that filters down through the community and the road becomes aware of the increased box office. There's also a good pressure that it brings to the markets who feel that they have an obligation to bring in the best musical. And as Stephen mentioned that tends to be the only Tony award that has that dramatic and impact. But as he said, you can have a show that presenters might not have been so hot on booking, but if it wins best musical, they feel they have to do it because that's what their subscribers expect.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Their Broadway series represents excellence. And one of the sort of, I would say overuse statement is, Broadway is the longest road in America, because everybody has a Broadway series and there are about 65 to 75 markets that have legitimate Broadway series that bring in equity shows. And again, there are markets that don't necessarily book the best musical because it's the best musical. They book it because it will make money. Broadway road tours are about satisfying your subscribers. So the 10,000 subscribers you have in X market will be satisfied and happy with the show. And it there's an expectation that that show will do a single tickets. And in many cases with some of the higher end shows, VIP tickets. Now, VIP tickets, that whole dynamic is going to change post quarantine when theater comes back. But I think people book shows that make money, very simply. It's crass, I hate to say it, but it's the truth.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Follow the money.
Hal Luftig - Host:
It's perfectly fine, because this whole podcast is about how the commercial side of Broadway meets the artistic side. Can you walk us through, what is the first step or what are the steps in mapping out a tour?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I think it's fair to say that, listen, every producer that has a show and has spent the years and the time and the money behind their show thinks their show is Hamilton, or their baby is the most beautiful baby. And so it's always treated with kid gloves because we have a tremendous respect for the producers we work for and work with. We always tend to be conservative as bookers. Some other booking agents are not, but we try to be conservative. You can always come back. So if we decide, "Okay, you bring us a show, you're opening in New York, let's see what the box office looks like and see how you do. But let's talk to the field about the viability of the title. And sometimes that title is a movie title or a branded show, something that people already know, or maybe it's an entirely new musical with a new title that road markets are less familiar with.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
We basically go, and whatever the case is for that show, we take it to the local markets, the road markets. We talk about the viability of it, what they think it means if it were on their subscription or if it were off their subscription. And we sort of gather that information, that data, come to a conclusion, this show might be like this show that we worked on 12 years ago or five years ago. And then we put together what's called a ghost trial, where we sort of lay out our utopian route, which is pure fiction, but it's sort of like Pinterest, where you're taking snapshots and pictures and you're pasting it together and that represents our show. And we determine how many weeks that is by talking to the local promoters.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
We understand where we fit economically. If they have five or six shows on their subscription, where do we fit in that? Do we need to be the economical slot? Are we the mid-range slot? Are we a mega? I think there's a lot of variables to determine how viable a tour is and how many weeks. But it really is from the first stages, a lot of guesswork. And in some ways it's an art in doing this. If we were to pat ourselves on the back, it's kind of this, and somebody has to do the work. I think when local presenters talk to the producers and their art business is so small, everybody has a relationship with everyone, I think the booking agent tends to be a neutral voice or ear. And so where a producer could talk to presenters directly, they're not necessarily going to get a true statement of how that market feels about that show in their market.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I think people do respect the creatives. They respect the field, but the agent basically gets to the guts of things I think in some ways. We're the truth serum of the business. So, the idea that we would create this ghost route, determine the viability of it on the road, how many numbers of weeks, what the cost of the show is going to be, we then bring that ghost route to you, the producer, as a discussion point with our general manager to say, "Can we fit the needs of the creative and your idea of what the show needs to look like under these parameters?" And that's sort of the big starting point that is sort of the the big bang of any show's life on the road.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
And I'd like to also add, as Stephen alluded to, there's a lot of data out there tremendous amounts of data available, and that can inform a lot of what you do. But it really is an art. There really is a huge element of your gut and understanding the road because it's not just what your show is. Your show could be exactly the same kind of show, do the same box office as another show three seasons ago did. But the rest of the road, the landscape you're going into could be completely different and that could completely change the tour. [inaudible 00:12:21] that you can get out one year might not have gone out two years later. You can't just look at data. And our business, the data pool that we have access to is not super deep. There's not so many, there's not hundreds and hundreds of shows per year, there's a dozen so you don't have data that can be super reliable. You have to understand what else is going on in the road and where you fit in in addition to lots of other variables.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And might I add also, just when you say there's 12 shows, ultimately in each market, that's where it lands about 10 to 12 shows in each market. And this is an example pre-closing, before the quarantining, there were 40 shows being offered for the current 2021 season. So, not only do you create a work of fiction when we put together these tours, but we're also calculating how does that fit amongst the 40 other shows that are being offered on the road? So it's a tremendously competitive marketplace
Hal Luftig - Host:
At some level, it must get a little frustrating for you guys. You have a show and you do believe in it and it's doing okay in New York. But then you go out to your people on the road and they're like, "Well, not so much, because this season we're going to take X, Y and Z." There must be some level of frustration to that.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Absolutely. I mean, we live in a time where there are more mega musicals than ever before, that come back year after year. So you've got Lion King and Wicked and Hamilton. So, since those return and they come back you have fewer slots available. There was a time, five to 10 years ago when you'd be booking a tour and there might be one mega musical taking up a slot in the season and the rest of it was open. It is not uncommon now to have two or three mega musicals already holding a spot in a season because there are so many of them and they keep coming back. So, it's gotten more competitive.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
We don't know what the post COVID marketplace looks like at this point. I can tell you from this point, from this taping, the markets right now are looking at the shows that are more reliable, the mega musicals. And I'm not to mention any shows, but we know what they are and the most branded product they can get their hands on because they know presumably if we open in the spring or fall of '21, that will be a recovery season and that season will consist of a limited number of new titles, but generally branded product that audiences and new audiences know, and a lot of carry over, eight to 10 months of rescheduled shows during COVID moving into the '21, '22 season. The reopening of the road, and let alone Broadway is going to be a new world. It's the new theater distribution. We don't know exactly what that looks like. we're very pleased to have shows that have meaning on the road and our presenters are interested in those shows. And we're literally holding dates into that '21, '22 and '22, '23 and in some cases through '23, '24 at this point, so it's wild.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah. It sounds like if you think of it as a highway, one big major log jam.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
The interesting piece to that is there's this log jam of the shows that are moving and the shows that have just opened. But I think we all expect then there could be a dearth of product from Broadway that might trickle down to the road in a few seasons. But again, that's going to benefit some tours, some shows that might not have gone out, will get out because there may not be as many new musicals.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And then on the flip side, New York, how you talk about the log jam, the road has had a log jam with 40 plus titles every season for the past five or six years. New York theaters were hitting the jackpot. You know what I mean, take whatever theater you can get. There was a log jam in New York where you had fully financed shows that couldn't get in. And all of that I think will change once we reopen. I think we don't necessarily have the tours automatically, so we're going to rely on our local folks on Broadway when we reopen, assuming the borders open, people will come back to New York, but theaters will become available again in the short term, one would think. But I'm a road guy, so I shouldn't speak on behalf of Broadway.
Hal Luftig - Host:
No, I would agree with you on that. Logic would just say that not every show that was currently running before COVID, won't be able to reopen because of financial considerations and some of the shows that were circling for a theater may now not be viable. They may not have raised all their money and those kinds of things. So I think logic, you're probably right. Just tells me there's going to be a loosening of everything for a while. How long? Who knows. But I want to get back to some things that you mentioned before about when you book a tour. So, from what I hear, just like Broadway to get a theater, the road to get accepted by presenters, there needs to be a financial viability to the show. It can't cost that much to run in a city that can handle that kind of expense structure. So, what are some of the considerations or things that you would tell a producer like myself that we have to do with the show before it can even attempt to go out on the road?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Well, one of the first things that I usually discuss with any new producer, we've had this discussion once I think, and then we've worked on several shows together, but I think it's important that every producer understands that we don't know what your show is yet on the road. You may have a show that's working and it could be a hit and it's running in New York and people are embracing it, or you got great reviews and ticket sales are picking up, but you don't have much of an advance. I mean, we don't know what you are going to be on the road yet. And I think that's an important thing to remember when we're building these tours. Every tour fits into some box on the road. It's a pretty set configuration, the whole subscription model. And we should talk about what the subscription model is too, because some people might not understand what that is.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yes, please.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
So, every market, and this is a new phenomenon, meaning in the last several decades, it used to be that the road would go out on tour and each would go out on the road and you'd have this route, it'd be confirmed and everybody would go up on sale. And it was generally single tickets. And what would happen is if the front end of the tour didn't sell well, the tour would cancel. And that happened with a number of shows. When Brett and I first opened, there were several shows that closed because either the show wasn't aesthetically good enough and that happened with one. I won't mention which one, or the show doesn't sell any tickets. So therefore the market's at the back end of the tour fallout. So, it was hard when that existed. It was hard to establish any kind of credibility for Broadway touring shows.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Was it the '90s, I guess. It was the '90s, where pretty much guarantees were established. What a guarantee is, is that the producer determines how much it costs running costs for them to build a tour for the road. They determine what their running costs and the amortization will be. And what fees are associated with that. And the local presenter basically today has what's called a subscription package where they've spent decades creating the trust with their patrons, that the shows they put together are the best shows from Broadway or elsewhere. Sometimes the West end. And they've managed to create a base of patrons who are willing to advance them $1,000, $1,500 for six shows proceed, similar to getting season tickets, the sports game.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
The subscription model has become really the crown jewel of our business, because we know that you can put The Dancing Monkey on stage, and if it's on subscription, it's going to be loading in this number of subscribers tickets and this dollar amount. So, it's a really valuable, and for conservative people like us, a valuable asset for road touring, something that Kinky Boots relied on, the subscription load-in is part of the box office once they say yes to the show, and then we determine what the splits are based on the financials. And hopefully, your show sells a ton of single tickets above and beyond the subscription.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I was going to ask that question, when you figure in what each city's subscription as you call it loading is, is there a consideration on our guesstimate on how many single tickets that particular city might sell for this show?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
I would say, this is coming from, again, our conservative viewpoint. If I was producing a tour, I would say to my producer, "You should make sure this works if we sell no single tickets. If it works just on the guarantee." That's the ideal world is that you can make money just on the guarantee because you just can't rely on single tickets. That said, we just know historically there are certain markets that are very strong, that have truly cultivated their communities and beyond the subscriptions and for a good show, they're going to sell tickets. And there are markets that we know just aren't as strong, but it really is it continues to surprise us year after year. You'd have a show that might've gotten accolades that people loved, and it goes out on the road and the single tickets just don't work against all expectations.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
And likewise, a show that we may not personally particularly like, and we've had plenty of those, but the American public wants that show and they love it and they buy tickets like crazy. So, it's really hard to bank on it. Over and over again, we often do part of the process of all this, with almost every tour we do is we sit down with our GM and our producer and we guess. We make guesses, "Oh, I think this week will do 800,000. I think this week we'll do a million," because that's such a part of the budgeting process for producers. And as they are creating these tours and getting investment and getting people to put money in the tour, they need that data. They need to know how things look for them.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
We lay out the financials also based historically on what the ticket scales were, where we think that fits in with your show, what the local expenses are. We have the histories of what other shows have come in that are similar, we sized and we do break downs, "This is where you can be based on 65%, 78%." So we do a lot of numbers and guesswork for and with our GMs and our producers.
Hal Luftig - Host:
This is a great example of where the business side of the business marries your artistic side. Because I, as a producer, when I have to go to the creators or Jerry, Oh, I'm sorry, any director. I'm using Jerry Mitchell, because we're talking about Kinky Boots, but when I have to go back and say, "Okay, we need to not have the shoes come out from Belief the Deck, or we can have a particular piece flying in as we do on Broadway," that helps, right? If I can reduce the cost of what it cost to run that show every week on the road, that helps us become a more viable product?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Absolutely.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
100%.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
And I'd even add to that and say something that I've seen even more of a push on in recent years is the load in which is the period of time that the show is unloading their trucks and putting it into the theater and getting ready, it used to be very common for first run Broadway shows to have a two day load in. They would arrive Monday morning. They would load in Monday and Tuesday, and first performance is Tuesday night. There's been a real push, and it's not necessarily even cutting back. It's just being more efficient and being smart about how the show is built, but doing a one day load in. It makes a huge difference. It reduces the labor bills locally and brings down the costs, makes it easier to hit profit on the engagement. That's been a big thing that I think has accelerated in recent years in part due to the pressure because of the competitiveness, the guarantees have not necessarily risen at the same rate as costs have. So, you had to find economies and that's a big economy that you can realize on the road.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I would like to add, and this is not us, but it's more about Hal, because your Hal listeners need to know that when we did Kinky Boots and we had positioned our route and we decided that we just won best musical, Brett and I said, "You know what? Now we can be priced at this. It's terrific. We should go out with this." And Hal said, "No, we have to keep the economies in mind, and because I've had such a tremendous history and I'm grateful to the local markets, I want it to be priced at this, not a gift, but as recognition of what they've done for me in the past." And I just want to say that, Hal, because you're one of the only producers who allowed something like that to happen. And because of it, I think they worked harder on the show, you made more money with your producers. And I think the local markets made more money. I think it was a tremendous moment in time touring.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Thank you for saying that. To my listeners, this wasn't a prepped question, I swear. They said that spontaneously. But thank you.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
It is the Hal show.
Hal Luftig - Host:
So, how did you get started in the touring and booking business? What was your trajectory to where you are today?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Wow. Well, I can give you the 32nd or I can give you the 30 minutes. Which one do you want, Hal?
Hal Luftig - Host:
I think the 30 ... Let's compromise, and say, how about a minute?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I was a musician my whole life, still am, but it's more therapy than professional now. I studied music, similar fields, but I thought I was going to be a jazz musician and went to work for Columbia Artists as an assistant. And again, it created a path for me, shortly after I was thrown someone put a smoking jacket on, we went to Cipriani's and said, "Hey, you know what? You and your personality, you be a great agent." And I said, "Sure, what's that?" Because no one knows what it is to be an agent. It's not something you learn in school. It's not something that there's a course for it.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Yes, there's music industry courses, but they don't really talk about being agents. I was hooked really from that point. And shortly after that I, through a friend, I think it was my girlfriend, met through on a plane, someone who was opening a new company. And that was a company called The Booking Office, which is now The Booking Group. I was lucky enough to get a position with them for about six years. From that point forward, I left that company. And soon after, with Brett, and Brett's part of this story, we created a business plan for The Road Company. Brett, how do you pick up from there?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
My trajectory was a little different. I was in law school studying to be a lawyer. And about halfway through law school, I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer, but I finished it. I took and passed the New York State bar, and immediately knew I wanted to go back into theater. So from my college days, I had a lot of friends who were working in theater and one friend of mine said, "Oh, you should talk to my other friend. You've met him before. He's got a company, they're a booking agent." And I also didn't know what a booking agent was.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Interviewed with them and that was The Booking Office. And I got a job there. I think I started about a year after Stephen and that's where we met. And we were sort of the low guys on the totem pole there and bonded over our working relationship. And then when Stephen left, I left about six months or a year later, and we were naive and young enough at that point to say, "Hey, we could do that. We could start up a company. We know what to do." We had no shows, which in retrospect was completely foolish, but we started the company.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
But we were passionate.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
We were passionate. We had lot of people who believed in us, we were able to raise the money from friends, from work colleagues. And we through this together and it was ... In the early days we did not start with Broadway Shows, but over time we got there.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
One of the greatest look backs too, Hal, is reading the original business plan, which it just leaves you in stitches. Like, "Oh my God, and how wrong everything was and how did anybody invest any money into this business plan?" But in hindsight, it was about following a passion.
Hal Luftig - Host:
This was actually a plan that you gave to potential investors that not only explained what you were going to do and how you're going to do it, but the cost factor, how they were going to make a profit on their investment. Correct?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Correct. Not unlike the show. I mean, literally we opened a show.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
We made it up.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
That's why we make great agents.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
[inaudible 00:32:14] these books, Business Plans for Dummies, something like that.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
We did, yeah.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
And it's helpful. It actually got us through the process. And then that became part of the offering. We made up the structure of how the company would make money and how we would distribute profits or losses, because in the early first year and a half, there's necessarily a loss for any booking agency because of the time you have to book ahead. We're booking stuff for two years from now. So, when you first start a company, you start with no revenue until your show starts. We knew we would lose money, but there's value in loss. So that business plan and the offering laid out all that stuff. And that's how we convinced people.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
But let's add, also, of that business plan, and this is probably good advice to any listeners if you're thinking about, and you never want to open a booking agency, but any company for that matter, some of our investors are actual presenters on the Road. So knowing that we were going to be a road touring company we knew that we needed to have some strategic investors to invest in us in hope that we'll have a foot in the door when we were finally representing certain types of products that they'll favor us a little more than others and support us in that way. And that strategy worked for us.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Well, clearly it did because you guys are hugely successful at what you do, but I just want to take a moment, pause for our listeners and tell anyone who may be thinking of investing in a Broadway Show, this is not power Broadway Show capitalizes and gets investors. We don't make stuff up and go, years later, "Well, I guess we said that, but we did this." It's very regimented and very strictly followed by the attorney. You're telling loses a story and I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my God, I had no idea." And I used to give these guys my shows. I was like, "[inaudible 00:34:16]"
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And listen, we've graduated to relying more on data and truth too, Hal. So, whatever that means.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Do you guys remember what the first show was that you actually booked?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Oh, sure.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Definitely. And we're tremendously proud of it, Late Night Catechism. We booked a one woman show, a nun show. And just for some context too, when we opened, we had several themes and hooks in terms of why it was a good time to be an agent and to open an independent agency, because at that point there was a tremendous consolidation happening in our industry. That was the late ... Oh not, '96, '97, '98, where SFX was buying every rock promoter in the country. Companies even on Broadway were merging and consolidating into larger organizations, booking agencies were then gobbled up by these large entities.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
So, we were really the only independent booking agency. And that was part of our pitch with the investors and getting shows. And so our first target was independent producers who weren't being getting their fair share or representation from these larger agencies who also want it to be producers. I think the success of our company was because of the climate and the timing of it as well. Late Night Catechism, very quickly, we started picking up smaller Broadway shows that other agencies would normally have passed on.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Yeah, let me add to that. Because one thing I'm very proud of in the early days when we were pitching this stuff. One thing that we, I feel really pioneered with a lot of the PAC is that we still work with was we brought them, we didn't have access to Broadway at that point. We weren't established. So, we had these off-Broadway shows like Late Night Catechism and The Pitch that Stephen would make to these presenters is, "Hey, you have these Broadway series, you have your big space. I have this little show. Why don't you put this little show in your little space because a lot of these PACs have multiple theaters. And The Pitch was, "Put this little show in your little space and take your subscription. And instead of doing one week in your big space, do three weeks in the small space." And that worked. And that's how we had our start and Late Night Catechism was so successful. At one point we had six simultaneous production [inaudible 00:36:54]. That one little show and when we started, I think it costs 15,000 a week.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Wow. That does sound really fore thinking to tell a presenter instead of one week in your big theater where a small show like that would probably just get swallowed by the size of the auditorium to take three weeks and put it into a smaller space, that was fore thinking. Did you get any pushback on that?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I'd say about half of the Broadway markets booked Late Night Catechism, and it was tremendously successful because again, it starts with the quality of the show. I mean, the show resonated, it worked, it had been running in Chicago for years. I mean, the creator, Mary Pat Donovan was running it. And it was representative at the time by a producer that we had worked with in our previous live at the last company that we had worked with. And if you have 10,000 and 12,000 subscribers, that particular presenter has a 500 seater, you know you're sold out for three weeks if you put it on subscription.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
So, I think for the first time, for many of these presenters, these unused spaces were finally being used, not for two nights or three nights or rentals, but for three to five week runs. And so shortly after that, we started pushing off-Broadway subscriptions in some of these markets and that worked. And to this day, they still continue to do that. We do less of those now, but because we have the bigger shows, it was incredibly viable because there were limited number of shows touring. And when they needed a slot, we were always there to put another show into an alternative venue.
Hal Luftig - Host:
That it's brilliant. I had no idea the Genesis of that, but it's a brilliant idea. And not only has it survived, but it actually some of the New York theater companies now use that. Some of them have several spaces and they'll take a show that may not fit into their big house and they'll do it at their smaller black box space. And it works. It's a formula that works not only obviously on the road, but in New York city and I'm sure other cities where there are major resident theaters, regional theaters.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And I think at the time for many of these presenters that traditionally only did Broadway even to today, they continue to do smaller show runs in their smaller spaces. It provides a much more unique, intimate experience for their subscribers.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Do you guys remember, each of you, what your first touring show that you saw was?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
I can't say it was Certainty. Growing up in Baltimore, Maryland, back then, it was the Maurice Mechanic Theater, which was not a great [inaudible 00:39:51], but I think it was probably a touring production of Fiddler, to be frank.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Do you remember who was in it, Brett?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Oh, God, it's hard. I don't know. I'm not sure.
Hal Luftig - Host:
What was yours, Stephen?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
How could I ever forget, sitting on the aisle and that frigging cat coming next to me at the Forest Theater [inaudible 00:40:10] its eyes at me and scaring the bejesus out of me, it was Cats at the Forest Theater in Philadelphia. I was not a fan. But I'm sure I had the movies much better. So, I'll have to check that out sometime.
Hal Luftig - Host:
So what happens when a show cannot get to its next city on time, whether it be a snow storm or a mechanical failure?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
That's a good old force majeure most of the time. But that has certainly happened plenty. I feel like quite frankly, with climate change stuff, we've encountered more weather related issues I'd say in the last several years than we then we used to 15 years ago. But it comes down to an analysis at that point, is it a force majeure? Is it impossible to do the performance? And sometimes there can be some wrangling about that. But for instance, if there is a massive snow storm in a city and the government declares a snow emergency and they don't allow people to drive around or something, so you can't do the performance. That's a force majeure. And what happens in that situation, the producer has to return the pro-rata portion of the guarantee that they'd been paid and both sides lose whatever they had.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
It's like each side eat their own costs. And you just have to lick your wounds and move forward. And if it's a longer run, you do have the benefit of you can have the cancellation. The canceled performance, people who had tickets can sometimes be put into later in the run. So, we've seen that on a tour like Wicked, where if for some reason there's an ice storm, you can put people into week three because you have the inventory at that time. When it's a more successful show, successful market, that there may not be inventory in a shorter run, that can be more challenging. That's generally how you deal with that sort of situation. It's not pleasant to deal with that.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
What I've been amazed to see over the years is how they do, they figure it out. They find a way to do it. And you may be missing some of the scenery, you may be missing some of the costumes, but assuming it's not missing, even if it's missing an integral thing, they just do it. They make the best of it, and figure it out. It's always amazing to me how those of us who are back in the offices in New York or wherever, we have one way of viewing it. But when you get down in the trenches on the road with people, they get it done.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
And it's always we are dealing with the people who are going by the book and by the contract, and they're saying, "Oh, we can't do this, and we can't load this in." But when you get out there in the reality, these stagehands and these pros, they figure out a way to get it done. I can't recall. I don't know if you can, Stephen, at a time where it's not a complete disaster, when we have had times where a truck crashes and the set gets destroyed. But we've had experiences where they do the show with no costumes.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
As long as the audiences are aware of what has happened. I know what show you're referring to. I mean, it does rarely happen on sort of the first club side, but I think with the non-union shows, and again, I agree with Brett, I think that these companies that go out on these road tours, God bless them. I mean, they are pros. They're good at what they do. We rarely hear about the bad stuff. Because they always sort of put on the show. It's about putting on a show. But when you get to the non-union shows, even though we know most of the buildings, now there are, earlier, I said, there were 70 to 75 major Broadway presenters. There's also another 250 smaller markets, secondary, split week or tertiary markets out there.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And most of our non-union shows, which sometimes play six cities in a week, where the actors' bus and the stagehands' bus, but they cross each other in the night. They never see each other. We usually have an A, B, C configuration, because a lot of these can't technically load in the three or four trucks that were touring. But the touring production companies that specialize in those type of tours, they know how to do this. I mean, it feels impossible, but it works. And they figured out a way on those tours to load in eight hours every morning to put the show up at night, they load it out in four hours and they travel 300 miles to that city.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah. I agree. It always amazes me, that statement to show must go on, except in this current situation with COVID, but it always amazes me how people pull together and they make shifts. They do whatever they have to do to get that show on. Well, gentlemen, like all good things, this show must come to an end, but I am so thankful for you being here. Well, before I let you go, we have what I call my rapid fire section. And I'm going to ask each of you the three questions. I'm going to ask each of you. You all are going to have to answer separate. I ask that you don't overthink it. Hear the question, first thing that pops into your mind. And one of you was going to have the advantage while the other one's answering. So, I'm going to start with you, Stephen, what is your favorite musical?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Wicked?
Hal Luftig - Host:
I was like, "Fair enough." And Brett, what's your favorite musical?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
The show that I loved and it was the experience, Spring Awakening. When Spring at first came in, Stephen and I didn't know anything about it. On a whim, we were like, "Let's go check out the Nightmare on Wednesday." We went in, we knew nothing about it and it just blew us away. And we got so excited. We never represented it. We didn't get the show, but the experience was we usually know so much about the shows when we see them, we knew nothing and it blew me away and it always has stuck with me ever since I saw that one.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And if I can add to my original answer, if I were to say aesthetically, and if I were to overthink, I did personally, aesthetically, musically, love Watts, the musical one, is dear to my heart, it touched me personally from that point of view. But Wicked as an overall experience is my favorite musical, professionally and how we've represented that show.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Those were very, very thoughtful answers. Now, I'm going to start with you, Brett. What is the wackiest moment you've ever experienced in the theater?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Wackiest moment.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I know what it is bad for you.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Okay. You know what? I don't know if this counts, but it's working in the theater. Years ago, somehow Stephen and I started to become known for at the various conferences, getting into various costumes or getting up, and in front of the entire 800 members of the league, and introducing something. And one of them, you will remember this was Kinky Boots. You referenced it earlier. For me, so having to dress up in silly costumes, whether it's the kinky boots or Stephen and I dressing up as Rocky and Apollo, when I represented Rocky-
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Listen, the listeners have to realize this is so out of character for, Brett.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
We are very uncomfortable, Stephen and I, especially I do not like speaking in front of large groups and put on the kinky boots and do that, I mean, that was insane and terrifying. I think it qualifies as wacky.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah. That, that does qualify as wacky. And so the follow-up to that question, I'm going to stay with you for a second, Brett, so the lesson you learn from that would be?
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Two-fold, not to take myself too seriously, to be comfortable with that and to push my limits. To push the limits of what you're comfortable with. I hate speaking and I've done that and I survived.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I'm really like moved by that answer, Brett. I mean, seriously. Okay, Stephen, your turn. What is the wackiest moment you've ever experienced in the theater?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
I hate to repeat what Brett said, but kinky boots, getting up in front of those boots, and then walking up the stairs to the stage and the heel broke-
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yes, I remember that.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
... was terrifying for me. Up until that point, I wasn't nervous. We were joking backstage. We walked up there, I'm wearing boots with my boxer underwear and a suit up top and the lights are on us and I froze, I mean, it was terrifying. But like Brett said, we got through it and we reassured ourselves afterwards, "Were you okay? Was I okay? We did okay. Didn't we? We got through this. It's done." And just our community afterwards, coming up and pat on the back, a hug, a raz, "You guys did great." It was those moments where it was like, "Oh, it's meaningful. We did it for our show. We did it for ourselves." But everyone heard about it. So, we put ourselves out there when we never expected to be put out there. That is the wackiest thing to happen to me in theater.
Hal Luftig - Host:
The lesson you learn from that Kinky Boots' experience was?
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Well, you know what it was? It was to represent more shows like Kinky Boots. I mean, the truth is that that moment made me realize, here we are representing this show that soon won best musical. And we were able to position in a way that our entire company was happy with each other. I mean, the routing work, the communication was on. I wanted to represent, that experience to me was by putting ourselves out there and even though we're booking agents and we're behind a desk and we're not involved necessarily in the creative aspect of it, we were still backstage with how Jerry and Cindy laughing, and just saying, "Can I take home the boots? Can I take them home?" And I think that sort of collaboration, you invited us into that experience. And I decided after that that I need to be part of that experience. This is a long-winded answer for rapid fire, but that led to you, Hal, saying, "You know what, we should make an invite every presenter on the Road to wear these boots." And they did.
Hal Luftig - Host:
The audience, which were made up of a lot of presenters went crazy and then from that came, "We should make a local presenter at the first performance." I usually come out and make a little curtain speech at the first performance to thank the audience and to talk about fundraising and things like that. But we said if they would wear the boots, I would fly out to that city and wear them with them and give a little why it's important to support this local theater kind of speech. And it was a ton of fun.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
It was great. It was so successful. And I think every presenter out there had the same experience that Brett and I did. It was enlightening. It was great. It was terrific. It was absurd. It was great. It was one of those things that stick out in my head.
Hal Luftig - Host:
It's been wonderful sharing this hour or so with you and your insights into this side of the business in invaluable, and I'm sure our listeners will just love it. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time of doing this. You guys are great at what you do and you're great friends, so thank you and stay healthy, stay safe.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
Thank you, Hal.
Brett Sirota - Guest:
Same to you, Hal.
Stephen Lindsay - Guest:
And thanks for including us on this. This was a real treat.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Broadway Biz. If you have any questions about today's episode or the business of Broadway in general, let me know on Instagram @broadwaybizpodcast, or via email at broadwaybiz@halluftig.com. Be sure to follow me @broadwaybizpodcast for updates on everything Broadway Biz, the business of Broadway. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Huge thanks to Dori Berinstein, Alan Seales and Brittany Bigelow. This has been produced by Dylan Murray [Peren 00:53:44] and Kevin Conner and edited by Derek Gunther. Our fabulous theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Laurence O'Keefe. To learn more about Broadway Biz, visit bpn.fm/broadwaybiz.