EPISODE TWELVE - "IS THE MUSICAL ON THE RISE IN KOREA?”
What an incredible conversation with Korean Producer Yoonha Choi! As head of international producing operations for CJ ENM’s performing arts department, Yoonha has overseen a Korean production of Kinky Boots, which successfully ran during the COVID pandemic. Yoonha also shares how Kinky’s popularity has impacted the musical theatre genre in Korea, what most inspires him to take across oceans, and his biggest hope for the business side of Broadway.
CJ ENM is Korea’s leading entertainment company in theatre (Moulin Rouge, Kinky Boots), media and television (Mr. Sunshine, Sweet Home), FIlms (Parasite, The Handmaiden), music (K-Con) and animation (The Haunted House). Yoonha’s main role is to produce CJ ENM’s theatrical productions on Broadway and the US as well as the West End and the UK. Other roles include acquiring shows for the Korean and Asian market. Main credits include Moulin Rouge, Kinky Boots, Back to the Future, Big Fish, Side Show, The Bodyguard and 42nd Street. Yoonha is based in New York City and is a member of the Broadway League.
transcript below!
Hal Luftig - Host:
Hi everyone. This is Hal Luftig with my Broadway podcast network show, Broadway Biz, where every episode I will chat with my friends, some of the top theater professionals in the business, about the business of Broadway.
Hal Luftig - Host:
(singing)
Hal Luftig - Host:
My guest today is Yoonha Choi, international producer of performing arts for CJ ENM. Yoonha and his team at CJ have been incredible partners for Kinky Boots in Korea. I could not have been more grateful for their work to make this American musical such a success abroad. Yoonha has keen insight for producing theater in many countries.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I'm so grateful he's taken the time to share what he knows on this episode of Broadway Biz. I'm very pleased to have Yoonha as my guest this afternoon, so let's give a big Broadway Biz welcome to Yoonha Choi. Hey Yoonha, how are you?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Hello, Hal. Thank you for having me. I'm doing really well.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Oh good, good. As most of my listeners knew from my introduction, you travel back and forth from Korea to London, London to New York. How has that all been for you in this crazy age of COVID and travel?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
There are fewer trips obviously. When the pandemic happened, I think it was February for us, I was actually in the UK attending the previews for Back to the Future: The Musical at the Manchester Opera House. And it was quite a journey back because I was beginning to get a little bit scared about this whole new pandemic. I was in New York for most of the time, mostly at home, but I had to go to Korea for about four months for work during the summer months. And quarantining for 14 days in Korea, and quarantining for 14 days coming back, is really not easy, especially with jet lag on top of it. But I'm glad I went and saw what I saw and I'm really glad that I'm back in New York.
Hal Luftig - Host:
No, we're glad to have you back in New York as well. I should disclose to our listeners too that during the pandemic, and I think South Korea got this so correct, during the pandemic you were able to have theaters open and in fact Kinky Boots, one of your and I productions, was playing over there during the pandemic. And we had a shutdown for a couple of days, correct, because of a little scare? But then we were able to go right back up and it was at a reduced capacity. Is that correct, Yoonha?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
That's right. For Korea, there was actually never a government-imposed shutdown or a lockdown, but many shows had postponed or canceled out of caution or because of lack of business, because when you have a pandemic fewer people are willing to go to the theater. But for Kinky Boots it was a very unique situation. We were set to open in mid-August, but the week before it there was a public holiday and that created a second spike in Korea, especially in Seoul.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
And again, we had reason to believe that some of our company members might have been implicated by COVID, so we had to stop the show for seven performances, for about a week, and get everybody tested and to have extra precautionary measures implemented into the theater. And then we reopened at 50% of capacity. Now, before August, it was at a hundred. Of course, many of these shows were not selling a hundred percent, but we had the option to sell a hundred percent. But since August social distancing was imposed by the government and we could only sell about 50% of the capacity.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I see. Even with that, I'm just curious because you're one of the few people, I think maybe the only person that I've spoken to, that has had theater actively running during this time. At the 50% level, did you find resistance to people to actually go to the theater, or were people still willing to go because they trusted that all the precautions were in place and people were tested so that they didn't have to worry about stepping indoors and getting infected? How did that work?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
I mean, since the pandemic struck Korea earlier this year the landscape looks different, even with the people who actually go to the theater. Now, the general public, I think they are still a little bit reluctant to see a show and they would rather stay home. But the people who are devout theater fans are still willing to come see a show. Actually, we found three or four months into the pandemic they yearned to see a show so much that some of the shows actually were selling better than last year or the year before, because they were craving to see shows.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
And because by August we were six months into the pandemic, people had gotten a little bit more used to it, to this new normal. It's very, very visually visceral when you walk into a theater that the testing, the questionnaires, the temperature checks, and the mandate to have masks on all the time, a hundred percent of the time, it's very, very vivid in directions to the audience members and towards the crew members. So, I think that gives a layer of confidence for people to enjoy the show.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Obviously, it's not the same as before. I mean, people are less vocal in their cheers and their applause, but for Kinky Boots we could really see that people were having a good time, after the show when we asked them if they enjoyed it. I think it's that level of relief that they can go see a show if they wanted to that's creating a different air of fun for people, although it's less visible when you talk to them.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Well, I might be biased, Yoonha, but I was sent a clip from your production, a curtain call as a matter of fact, and I couldn't tell if that was at 50% or a hundred but it looked pretty full to me. And the audience was as usual going crazy. It went to me and the writers, Harvey and Darryl and Cyndi and Jerry, and we were all moved almost to tears by the enjoyment, the resurgence of that joy back to our show. They looked like they were having a great time to us and just really moved us to tears. So, unless that was a fake curtain call, it looked like they were having a great time.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
No, it was completely real and I think I know which video you're referring to. I saw it on Jerry's Instagram. That was at 50, believe it or not.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Wow.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
And it looks more full but I think that's just the optics. It was actually quite full. It was 50%. We basically sold our what we could sell. So, it was a really good night. During the curtain call, this is the one moment when the usually quite reserved Korean audiences really get into it. And with a show like Kinky Boots, which has a fantastic curtain call, is when people really get up and get out of their usual character and just join in the fun. Of course, you will have noticed that everyone was wearing masks properly.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
And you can imagine what the atmosphere will be like when there's no COVID and how people would just be elated to see the curtain call. But yes, it is an incredibly touching moment even for us, because we can see it close by, closely looking at them. It's not just a sentiment of fun and joy, there's that layer of being moved by the show and being moved by the fact that they are able to see a musical despite of this very different situation around the world.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah. I just want to share with our listeners one last anecdote, and then we'll actually get onto why we're on the air talking. The first time I went over to Seoul to see your very first production of Kinky Boots, I remember you telling me that Korean audiences are different than US audiences in that they are very reserved. They don't usually hoot and holler the way we do or applaud loudly the way we do. And that doesn't mean they're not enjoying it. That usually comes at the end.
Hal Luftig - Host:
So, the first time I saw it I remembered you told me but I didn't cognitively get it. So, after the first number, which gets a huge round of applause here in the US, there was very polite, if you want to call it that, applause. And I thought, "Oh my god, they're hating this. Oh my god, they're hating ... "
Hal Luftig - Host:
And as the evening went and I just, "Oh, what did we do?" Then as the end, as you had told me, it erupted. That audience erupted into what was like a rock concert. I never saw anything like it. And they wouldn't leave. They stood there and applauded and stomped for 20 minutes. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. I think the cast came out three times and you were so right. So, I just wanted to tell that little anecdote to our listeners, that I've learned culturally the way an audience reacts is very ingrained into that culture.
Hal Luftig - Host:
So, Yoonha, let's get started. I wonder if you could describe to me what your role in CJ ENM is, and maybe give a little history of CJ ENM to our listeners who may not know.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Sure. CJ ENM, a lot of letters, is one of Korea's largest and most active entertainment companies. It's divided into film, television, music, animation, and of course performing arts. You might have heard of a film called Parasite earlier this year, which own Best Picture at the Oscars. That's one of ours. It was one of-
Hal Luftig - Host:
Fantastic.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Yeah. Bong Joon Ho is a legend, is a living legend right now in Korea as a director. It's one of our films. And if you are one of those people who are into Korean dramas, there's several TV series that can be viewed on Netflix, even in the United States. Mr. Sunshine and Crash Landing on You are two examples. They're on Netflix but they are CJ ENM produced.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
I specifically belong to the performing arts division. I've been with them from 2006. We mainly produce musicals in Seoul and here in New York. And my role as their producer and head of international business is to produce and co-produce shows on the West End and on Broadway, and then work with those productions to be replicated in Korea and sometimes in other countries.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
I've been here in New York for the past six years serving that role, and some examples of our involvement include of course Kinky Boots obviously, which is a production that we worked very closely with you, which just finished its fourth engagement in Seoul. Other shows we produce include 42nd Street, Big Fish. And we are just about to open Beetlejuice in Korea next year, which will be I think the first production after Broadway, so it's really exciting.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
After that, we'll be doing Back to the Future, the musical version, which will be in London next summer and then we'll be following up with Asian productions in the coming years. And the musical version of Moulin Rouge, which is another show that we're a co-producer on. We're talking with the producers about taking that show to Korea also.
Hal Luftig - Host:
You guys are involved in a lot of diverse projects, which I think is terrific. Yoonha, can you talk to me a little bit about how you ended up at CJ? More specifically, what was your relationship to the theater and the arts growing up, and how that helped you attain this quite important position within the company?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Unlike here in the US and the UK, musical theater is not a traditional genre for us. It's actually a relatively young genre of entertainment, and I didn't experience that much of it growing up. I certainly wasn't a showbiz kid of any sort. I didn't have any talent in the areas of performing or anything like that so-
Hal Luftig - Host:
Join the club.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, I wasn't one of those people. But I do remember my parents taking me to see Cats when it opened in London. We were living in London back in the 80s. I was really impacted by it. To be absolutely honest, I was a bit scared of the show rather than enjoying it. I was a little bit scared of cats to be honest. But the experience itself was really impactful. Plus the fact that my father worked as a film executive for a Korean studio, I think that influenced my pathway a great deal also.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Specifically, how I came into the business was when I was in college, university. I studied business and I was exploring what to do when I graduate. I stumbled upon a job which was to translate theater shows between British or American creatives who have flown into Korea, to translate for them between them and the local Korean staff. This was in the early 2000s when mega musicals were just about to flow into Korea from the United States and the UK, such as Phantom of the Opera, Mamma Mia! and Aida. And I worked as the director's translator for Aida.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
That was an eyeopening moment for me because that was when I learned that musical theater is actually not only a very fun genre, it's actually a very [inaudible 00:15:48] and a very personable genre. And I was intrigued how this new genre was quickly being adopted by Koreans, how it affected the audiences every night like no other type of entertainment. I'm a big movie fan, I like television. But what I like most about theater is the visceral experience that you get to see every night from a live audience, and I feel that to be the most gratifying part of being in the theater industry.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, I started off as a theatrical translator, and then at the end of that I was giving the opportunity to intern for CJ ENM in 2006 and I've been working for them ever since. CJ is a great place to work for me specifically because I have interests in television and film, and because, although we have our own unique responsibilities, it's good to be in a company that has many divisions and to be within proximity of other genres and to interact with those professionals who work for different outlets of entertainment.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Fascinating because I didn't know, I've worked with you for six years now, and I didn't know a lot of that. So, thank you. Yoonha, when you look at a show either CJ invests in or invests in so they can do a Korean production, what is it that you look for? For example, I know Kinky Boots was a huge success. What was it about Kinky Boots, the story of Kinky Boots, that CJ and you thought would work in Korea?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
You would remember. I think our first involvement on Kinky Boots started in 2012, and this was before Broadway and this was before the Chicago Tryout Production. I remember being introduced to this project Kinky Boots by Aaron Lustbader, the general manager of the show.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
At the time, we didn't know what the source material was. We knew that it was Harvey Fierstein, Jerry Mitchell and Cyndi Lauper. So we figured, well, the initial concept, the initial image and the title seemed a little bit risque for us and for the Korean audience because it involved a drag queen and Korea was not used to such subject matters. So, we were reluctant initially before we read the script and listened to the demos and saw the source material, the British film. But when we actually saw the material, we felt that the subject matter aside, this is a story about acceptance, about an unlikely friendship, about success and the efforts to get there, and what people learn during the journey of that success. So, we felt that it was a universal theme with very unique subject matter and a very unique character in it.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, we saw through and we went beyond the initial bias that we had before we read the script, and we fell in love with it. And we talked to Aaron and to you and one thing led to another. We were a part of the Broadway co-producing team. And thankfully it was a massive hit over here in New York. And we wanted to do it very, very quickly in Korea, and we still to this day are thankful that you and the whole creative team allowed us to put it up in Korea so soon, which was I think 18 months after the Broadway opening.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, a show like Kinky Boots at the time was not a typical show that we would go for, but we took a gamble and it really paid off. I think to the theatrical industry in Korea, I think it is a good movement because it's nice to open up new sub-genres of musical theater to our audiences, and it's very, very heartening to see our audiences react to the story, react to the music, react to the theme and basically making them hungry for new musicals that come from Broadway or the West End.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Do you think having so successfully done that, as you said, with Kinky Boots in Korea, that that will allow CJ and you to look at more diverse, different kinds of entertainment for the Korean audiences?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Yes, I think so. Because musical theater is still a young genre and a growing genre, we cannot go overboard and try to replicate everything that's going on on Broadway and expect our audiences to react instantly. We cannot expect that so it's one at a time. What we learned through that process was that even as producers we sometimes have biases or preconceptions without actually seeing the show or reading the script, and we just brush it aside and look at shows that seem like a more surefire hit. Now, we've learned the lesson of there can be hit musicals that are slightly different in its character, or slightly different in its approach, that still has a universal theme, it's still fun and it's still moving. So, I think diverse array of shows will be introduced. It already has started. That movement has already started in the last five years. So, we are expecting new shows to come to Korea and to be accepted by the public more than let's say 10 years ago.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I totally agree. It sounds like what you have on your plate coming up is just that, is a diverse, different kinds of musicals, everything from Back to the Future to Beetlejuice to Moulin Rouge. It sounds like these are very different kinds of entertainment for an audience that has been very traditional up to this point. So, I'll be very curious to see how that unfolds as we move forward.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yoonha, I wanted to ask, as you mentioned, you were part of Kinky Boots very early on in New York. You saw it in Chicago. You then were with us when we were developing, in previews in New York and opening in New York and so forth and so on. So, you saw how we actually produced and put the show together. For your listeners, could we talk a little bit about what it's like to transfer a show from New York to Seoul, and what you saw or experienced as some of the differences in producing it in one country as opposed to the US?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Sure. It is different and it is a process. No show is exactly the same, but basically the first thing, the first order of business is to get the rights. We felt lucky and proud that we co-produced Kinky Boots, and thus did not have to get into a bidding with 12 other Korean producers. But we do sometimes with other shows, and that's a whole different episode because there's a lot of situations that can get very, very funny.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
In getting the rights, I think the central part, the central conversation is if we want to do it as is, i.e. a replica production, or if we would like to make changes. For instance, if we just take the book, music and lyrics, but have our Korean, local creatives direct choreograph and design the shows themselves, that's called a non-replica. It's a different structure. And sometimes we can decide which one to do. Sometimes we don't have an option, we are asked to do a replica or asked to do a non-replica. But that's the first question usually when we're talking to producers or agents or creatives. I can't say which is harder or better, replica versus non-replica.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
For Kinky Boots, which was a full replica production, it was definitely a larger endeavor because we have to work with both worlds, the Broadway creatives and producers, and our Korean production, marketing, PR and creative team. They're from different cultures, speak different language, but they have to work together to bring this show to Korea in its almost exact form, but also turn it into the Korean language and to make it work for our Korean audiences. That's quite a challenging thing to do. With some shows, they do not allow a single change to the show, while other shows have a more flexible approach. I think with Kinky Boots, as I recall, there were elements of the show that were sort of like the Bible, "You cannot change this." But there are other elements that we were able to convince the creative that, "We need to change this little bit to make it work for our audiences." It's an ongoing process.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
We just finished our fourth engagement in Seoul, and every season I think there's more flexibility in our approach. But also we're always open to listening to Jerry or to Harvey or to Cyndi about the reason why they don't allow certain changes. It's not just a matter of, "You can't change this because this is my show." They tell us why we shouldn't change this part because this is deeply embedded into the heart of the show, and changing that would make more damage than good. So, it is a very, very close process of conversations and it can get very heated sometimes. But it's also very interesting to have that back and forth between the American team and the Korean team.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah, yeah. I remember one of those, and please add others because I find this really interesting, and I hope our listeners do, about what kind of cultural compromises one has to make to make the show as relevant in one country as it is in the other. And I remember one of our first hurdles was casting the role of Lola. Do you remember this? Because you were the first or second foreign production, Harvey was insisting that Lola be portrayed by a black actor. And when we explained to him, "That's probably going to be harder to find in Korea," which actually all sat down and asked him why it needed to be this. He told us it was because it was one more layer of Lola feeling like she was out ... they were outside of the realm, outside the box, if you will.
Hal Luftig - Host:
The gentleman who was finally cast, the first Lola, he was just amazing. I'll never forget that he took the role and made it more heartbreaking than flamboyant. And I thought that worked beautifully because you almost felt like this person had to be the Lola character. He could not have lived in the world being anything else. That was the first time that was an eyeopener. I think the creative team really saw that. That was one example. Do you have an example of where we needed to change some things in the show to make it culturally I guess acceptable in Korea?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Of course. The casting is always an issue. It's usually the biggest issue between the Broadway side and the Korean side, because we see it differently. Race of course in Korea is pretty homogenous still, so it would be very, very difficult to find white actors or black actors or Hispanic actors.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, we have to make do with the Korean actors. But somehow pick the right person who's of course not of that race but who can portray the sentiment and the emotion of that particular character. I think the casting, because in Korea the shows are not open runs, they're not designed to run forever as they are in New York, the producers are more anxious about getting a star or a named person into the lead roles. That's usually a moment of friction between the creatives and the Korea producers sometimes, because the artists want the perfect person to play those roles while the producer might want somebody who's really good for the role but who can sell tickets or has media value.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
But I think at the end of the day we find a middle ground, and sometimes we don't, and sometimes we don't successfully cast the person who works with that particular role. But for Kinky Boots again, I think it did really work really well, where we hired a person to play Lola who was lesser known in the industry but who has since become a star of musical theater. So, that was a really good example. For us, there were small tweaks and changes in the script, but what I recall the biggest change was I think in the second season back in 2016.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
When Jerry flew over, we had multiple meetings about this, but we asked him to extend the curtain call, which was met with resistance at first because it was the perfect length. We did not disagree to that opinion, but again because Koreans really want to get involved but it takes a little bit of time for them to warm up, we felt like if we could expand the curtain call a little bit and maybe have the angel characters come down from the stage to the auditorium, that would accentuate the fun of the experience two times, three times of the original curtain call. And again was met with resistance in the beginning, but eventually we convinced Jerry and his team that this was the way to go, and thankfully he agreed. He actually designed the curtain call for us and it worked really, really well.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Unfortunately, we couldn't do that in this recent season because of social distancing. But those were one of the things that really worked for us. Again, it was a conversation. It wasn't, "We need to do this or else." It was a gradual persuasion of the reason why we wanted to do this, and to see it work, I think that has led Jerry to believe that, "Okay, sometimes different countries require different approaches." So, that was one of the things that we like to think about.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I'm very appreciative that CJ was very attuned to that, and cooperated when they can, but stood their ground when they felt something really needed to be changed. And you were 99% right. Since this is a show ostensibly about the business of Broadway and how the financial side meets the artistic side, how much did the financial impact make in CJ's decisions about the artistic merit of the show?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
There's always a struggle internally for any producer, a struggle between the creative side and the financial side, because they don't always work together. Sometimes, if you want to achieve something creatively satisfying there's a price tag to it.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
And because, like I mentioned, we don't have an open ended run like on Broadway, I think Korean producers tend to be slightly more cost conscious than Broadway producers. I'm not saying that Broadway producers are not, but because on Broadway you're designing your show to become a hit for a year, three years, five years, 10 years or 30 years even, you're looking at the upside. You're looking at the upside a lot more than when the show doesn't perform as well as you expect. But in Korea, because we have a set time limit on the run, usually between two to five months, it's very important that the producer understands that the upside of the production is utterly limited.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, instead of thinking of the upside, we need to be more responsible about if the show doesn't go in the way that we had hoped, how do we contain the losses? How do we reduce the losses that potentially can be incurred from this particular production? And when working with Broadway creatives, again it's a long series of conversations because we don't want to undermine the creativity or the quality of the show, because the exact reason why we are chasing after that show is because of the quality of those five, six, seven years of development.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
But at the same time, sometimes we are resistant about when the entire US creative team, if they want to fly to Korea to do everything, because that's fees, royalties, travel costs and hotels. Sometimes, we feel like it may be a better idea if we have person A, B, C and D come, but E, F and G, maybe they can guide our local staff members to do this well, because we are more conscious about keeping the budget to a manageable level. Whereas over here, it is default that the creative team are present during the rehearsal and the load-ins and tech rehearsals, and have much longer technical rehearsals.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
In Korea, the rehearsal time is very, very, very limited, because again we only have a few months to make this work for us. I think those are the elements that we fight quite often with the creatives, sometimes with the producers or the general managers. We find a middle ground along the way.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yoonha, you said this a couple of times, that engagements are limited in Korea and they have a short run and sometimes if successful they'll come back. Why are those runs limited? Is it because the Korean audience only can sustain a couple of months and then after you close down for a year or two their appetite is to come back and see it? Or is it a real estate, theater shortage? What causes that short-term of a run?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
It's a combination of both. I think the first reason would be the market capacity, and because again we don't have a Broadway. I.e. we don't have a cluster of large theaters. And we don't have as many inbound tourists as New York does. The market is almost 90% local audiences, Korean audiences. So, the market capacity, although it is growing, we are yet to be at that stage where we can have a show of 1,500 seats selling out every night for many, many years.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
But at the same time with the theaters, a lot of them are either subsidized by the government or the city, and some of them are completely private. But I think there is an element of fairness. A theater owner cannot give one producer or one production the whole year because they find it unfair to other producers, or sometimes unfair to other genres of live theater like ballet or opera or plays. So, they like to have a portfolio of their annual scheduling. That's another reason that commercial producers are not given more than three or four months in a given year.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
But I see, as we evolve further, more theaters will be built, and some of these new theaters probably will be dedicated to commercial runs of musicals and then we would have six-month runs and yearlong runs and maybe longer than that. But it will be a process.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Boy Yoonha, I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great if you could go meet our current theater owners and convince them that they should take a couple of theaters in each one of their chains and dedicate it to that same philosophy that you have, that it's fair, that other shows need to be seen and we're not just going to allow something to run forever, that this particular theater will only allow a three, a four, a six-month run. And then it can move if possible, but it needs to make room for the next experimental piece. I think that will go over like a lead balloon, but it's a good idea, isn't it?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Yeah. It's very interesting because Korean producers actually think the exact opposite because we don't have Broadway. We are endlessly envious about Phantom of the Opera running for 30 years, and think of the profits, and think of the cultural impact of having a show that runs for 30 years because that never happens in Korea. But, like you said, that has its own side effects because availability of theater in New York is very, very tough and sometimes you want a theater to harbor new and more experimental shows instead of having a show run for many, many decades. So, while Koreans are envious of Broadway, but I think Broadway professionals might feel that having a much more diverse portfolio of shows for theaters could actually be a good thing too.
Hal Luftig - Host:
You and I can go on and on and see if it works, but I wouldn't really put much hope in it. Yoonha, you talked about the local audiences. When you say local audiences, is that just the residents of Seoul or does Korean theater pull from some of the out regions, people who come in and see shows?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Well, Korea is about 51 million people, South Korea. The city of Seoul and it's surrounding Greater Seoul area accounts for about half of that, 25 million. So, it's a mega, mega city surrounded by big satellite cities. Like in the UK, as a lot of the culture is centered around London, Seoul is the center of culture, economy, entertainment, finance. It's very centralized. So, yes, the local audience are predominantly from Seoul or its surrounding satellite cities. That's why we don't yet have a regional touring market that is as robust as we would like it to be, because it's a relatively small country and so much of everything is focused in the capital city.
Hal Luftig - Host:
What do you think in South Korea will be the key for people to come back and say, "I'm going to go back like I did before, and not ever forget this but recognize that it's a thing of the past." Do you have any opinion of what you think that thing might be?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
I think because Korea never technically had a shutdown yet, I think we won't have a reopening of sorts. I mean, we have been impacted by COVID but the shows did get to go on. Now, I think we are making improvements in the experience of going to the theater. The ushers and the people who work for the theaters are very, very good at their jobs. Not only disinfecting the premises every day, but enforcing wearing masks, doing temperature checks, and having proper questionnaires about their health and their current symptoms if any. And contact tracing is another big thing. I think it's more psychological than anything else, because recently there was an article in the Korean news reporting that there had been about three million theater goers since the start of the pandemic until last month so far. That includes musicals, plays, concerts and what-have-yous. So, quite a sizeable number of people. But there has been zero infections at any of the theaters.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
There have been a few cases where some of the company members were infected, but only two of them for that production and they were quarantined by the way and the show got to go on. There were a few, a handful of cases where an audience member had COVID without him or her knowing and they were at the theater. Then they left and then they discovered they had COVID. Upon contact tracing, they discovered that they had their masks on all the time, they didn't talk to anybody during the intermission, so they didn't infect anybody during those two and a half hours at the theater. Zero infections out of a million people, that's actually pretty safe. As we get the word out that, contrary to people's preconceptions of the theater, i.e. a thousand people in a closed area, it's actually a very safe place because people are generally not talking during shows and they're facing the same direction. People are not allowed to put down their masks for even a couple of seconds. You would be chucked out of the theater if you do.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, the general consensus among theater goers, like, "This is a responsible thing for us to do in order for us to protect this genre of entertainment that we like. In order for us to be able to keep seeing shows, we have to be responsible. We have to be truthful when we fill out our questionnaires. We have to be wearing our masks properly. We have to wash our hands properly. We should not behave in the same way as we used to in the theaters, meaning we can't chat with our friends as much as we used to. But it's a small price to pay to be able to see theaters and to feel safe." I see that happening and the word gets out. I think there will be more confidence among the general public to return to theaters.
Hal Luftig - Host:
God bless the folks of South Korea. Here in America, we can't get people to not throw trash on the subway tracks. Could you imagine saying to them, "You can't speak or you have to ... " I just can't fathom how that would go over in New York. Bless you. And may South Korea be a beacon of light of how to do this properly. Yoonha, I wanted to touch, if you could for a second, personally for you if you could answer this. What draws you as a producer to a show, to a production?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
For me, because I've been with my organization for such a long time and I grew up with the company, so to speak, it's very difficult for me to separate myself from my colleagues and the tastes that they have. But of course we don't agree on all of the shows. Our tastes sometimes diverge. All in all, I have two pillars of taste. One is the more experimental type of shows. This isn't a musical but a play. One of my favorite live shows is War Horse, which played in New York a few years ago, and in London, I saw it in London. And it was a completely new experience for me because it had this very, very minimalistic approach but it was very, very complicated at the same time. But the emotion from those puppets and the story was just something that I had never experienced before. So, I would go for that.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
But I wouldn't necessarily recommend that we do War Horse in Korea because of the, I don't know, the business or the financial implications of it. Those are the shows that I secretly gravitate towards. But there are similar taste pallets that we share, for me personally with my colleagues and with the company. Because I'm not from here and I wasn't born or raised in America, there are certain cultural, subtle aspects that I can't think to be as sensitive about as a seasoned New York born and raised producer. So, the shows that I've mentioned so far, there's a through line to them. They are either based upon very famous films or they use music from well-known musicians and artists. But I think we feel that that is not enough.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
We don't produce every single jukebox musicals or every single movie musicals. We feel that there is value in familiarity of a certain story or a certain film or a book or a catalog, but we feel that Broadway is very good at creating an extra element of surprise in the productions, that it's not only a jukebox musical but it's a new musical using familiar source material. Again, I have these two conflicting tastes and it's usually a dance between what I go for versus what I feel like my audiences in Korea would go for. Luckily, a lot of the times they do converge.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you for explaining that. Just having known you for so long and worked with you side by side for so many years, it was more of a personal inquiry and I'm so glad I got to ask and your answer was so beautifully said. So, thank you for that. I feel like I know you a little bit better now.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Well, Yoonha, we're about to end this wonderful conversation. But before we do, I have a section which is called the rapid-fire section. It's three questions that all I ask you to do is don't overthink. I'll ask it and you'll say the first thing that comes into your mind, okay? There's no right or wrong, it's just some fun stuff for our listeners. Okay?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Okay.
Hal Luftig - Host:
So, the first question is what is your favorite musical?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Okay. I'm going to try to be impartial and leave out the shows that we've involved in, because I think that's fair. I would say Dear Evan Hansen comes to mind. There are many, many, but that comes to mind first. The reason I like this show very much is not because it's the best musical of all time necessarily. I was very, very surprised when I saw this show in development and on Broadway, because it's such an unlikely subject matter for me and for Koreans with an unlikely title role, with a very intimate production. And to see this blow up into this global phenomenon, that was very, very impactful to me. That's why I chose this musical.
Hal Luftig - Host:
I agree. It deals with a subject matter that, although people don't want to talk about because it's very painful, the occurrence of suicide among teens worldwide is rising every day. But it's one of those things that if you don't know what the signs are, a person may commit suicide before you even notice something is wrong. I think it's a very, very important topic. I agree with you.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Okay, question number two is what is the wackiest moment you've ever experienced in the theater? And wacky can mean anything.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Can it? Okay.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yes.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Wackiest moment. I can think of really wacky people that I've met but moment-wise-
Hal Luftig - Host:
Okay, okay.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
But wacky moment? I mean, the thing that comes to mind, again wacky may not be the appropriate term for it, but again with the most recent production of Kinky Boots in Korea, we did a very weird thing because of the pandemic. We officially announced to audience members at the theater to specifically try not to cheer so much, which is the direct opposite of what we usually do.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Like I said, we extended the curtain call because people need that extra time to bring that oomph and to express their emotion, but because we're in the middle of a pandemic we don't want to take chances. We were reluctantly urging people at the beginning of the show, saying, "Don't scream and shout and cheer too much, because that could make other members of the audiences feel less safe."
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
So, while it was a very reluctant thing to do, we had to do it. We chose to say it, announce, "Try not to cheer too much," which is the polar opposite of our emotion and our intention and heart. So, while I don't know if it's categorized as wacky, it was certainly one of the weirdest messages that we had to deliver to our audiences this year.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Yeah, that counts as wacky.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Yeah.
Hal Luftig - Host:
That's right up there as wacky. All right, last one. What is something you hope to see change about the theater in your lifetime?
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
For Korea and Seoul, I would like to see the musical itself become the star, because we are still very reliant on people, reliant on lead actors, stars to pull the show commercially. That has its upsides but we would like to ... Like with Kinky Boots and with Lion King, and with all these other wonderful Broadway productions, where the show itself becomes the star and it runs for a long time.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
And to see a show in Korea that runs for months and months and maybe for years, I think that's what I would like to see in the years while I'm in this industry. While in New York, I feel that New York is best known for its flexibility and its diversity and variety, that's probably at the root of its competitive edge on all areas of business and life in general. But what I've noticed working in New York is that there seems to be a rigidity in how a show is produced or developed. I was really surprised by that.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
There's good reason for that rigidity but I'm a little bit concerned about the rigidity of the processes hindering that diversity and flexibility that New York is the beacon of for the world. So, I would like to see more flexibility in how we conduct business moving forward.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Amen. I'm right here beside you on that. Thank you for joining us today. I hope our listeners were able to glean from just what I think our brief conversation was, what a special person you are, what a great producing partner you are, and how you so successfully bridge all three of those countries' work because you know what you're doing, you know what to look for, and you know your audience so well. And I think that is such a key element of being a successful producer. So, I thank you for joining us today, I thank you for sharing your insights with our listeners. And I hope when this is all over you and I can meet, like we used to do in New York, and have a nice lunch.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Absolutely. Looking forward to it.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Please be safe, be healthy, travel safely if you must. Let's promise each other that we'll see one another soon.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
I am greatly looking forward to that moment. Let's stay safe until that moment comes.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Amen. Okay, thank you, Yoonha. Bye.
Yoonha Choi - Guest:
Thank you very much, Hal.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Broadway Biz. If you have any questions about today's episode or the business of Broadway in general, let me know on Instagram @broadwaybizpodcast, or via email at broadwaybiz@halluftig.com.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Be sure to follow me at Broadway Biz Podcast for updates on everything Broadway Biz, the business of Broadway. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network.
Hal Luftig - Host:
Huge thanks to Dori Berinstein, Alan Sealls, and Britney Bigelow.
Hal Luftig - Host:
This has been produced by Dylan Marie [Peron 00:55:54] and Kevin Connor, and edited by Derek Gunther. Our fabulous theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Laurence O'Keefe.
Hal Luftig - Host:
To learn more about Broadway Biz visit bpn.fm/broadwaybiz.